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Page Title:
Web Elitists and "Rookies"
by Bill Sanders - September 27, 2006
Page last updated/all links last verified September 27, 2006. Page updated October 2, 2006.
Page Links:
NOTE: This page Under Construction/Conversion
This page has not been completely converted to OFPv2 Standards.
When this is completed, this paragraph will go away.
Meanwhile, all external links on this page open a new window.
Not all links were verified during redesign.
To the "Rookies"
To all those out there who are learning how to create web pages: There are a lot of "elitists" out there. These are people who believe they know everything, and that anyone who even attempts something like creating a webpage should, too. They are the ones who will respond with laughter, put-downs, slams, and other negative comments when you ask a simple (to them) question. They are the coach that says, "get off the field, get your street clothes on, and never come back," instead of explaining and trying to teach you how to correct your technique. They are the teacher looking at a single quiz or homework assignment, or at the "class clown", who look down their noses (you've seen this on TV, I'm sure) at students, and tell them, "You'll never amount to anything." Remember, (and they've forgotten), they were once the rank rookie that you are. They made mistakes, too. Their first attempts may have been nothing more than a "Hello World" web page. They have tried technique after technique (and should, still) to do what they are trying to do with their websites. They have tried (and failed) time and again. But they persevere, and by their words, most seem to think that all their hard work makes them the best at what they do. Bull-hockey!
Much web "design", today, has become more "magazine" layout design-work. True, what's "behind-the-scenes" is what we're really talking about, but if you have a compelling design, or can provide the information in a new or different way, people will come to your site, no matter HOW it's developed, HOW you coded it, etc.
HOWEVER, you DO have to remember there are a lot of browsers out there, each having their own "peccadilloes".
What does THAT mean? That means that each will all display your website differently. They all take the "behind-the-scenes" HTML or other markup language, and put their own designers' understanding of the way the World Wide Web Consortium (W3C) says they should through the W3C's standards and guidelines initiatives.
As you've probably already noticed, especially if you've done any searches to try to find answers to your questions, and found many forums, boards, blogs, and instructional websites, EVERYONE seems to have a different opinion of how well each browser does it. They CAN come to agreements on certain things, especially with like-minded individuals, and MANY can have intelligent, sometimes humorous discussions with each other (and even with ... "newbies") without becoming insulting. (The insults are more literate and "fun" than "You are an idiot" - VERY helpful - and:
[following a comment by someone who said they couldn't view a site another asked about critiques for the layout, HTML, etc ... ]
Lucky you!
It's another pious religious site run by an illiterate psychotic. I cant understand why these peope [sic] don't just: a) Shut up and die (that would do the world a favour) or b) Get all the help they need from their omnipotent, all-fantastic 'god'
But heck, I'm not really strongly anti-organised [sic] religion <g>
To me, the last sentence, even followed by a "smiley" ("<g>"="<grin>") does not mitigate what I would call a "flame", Besides, the poster commented more on the content than the request for critique about the layout, HTML, CSS, and what they could do to improve the look.)
Yes... Sometimes you will find that "elitists" who purport not to have time to waste on you, waste plenty of time putting you down. The thing to remember is that sometimes these are not even "elitists" but just someone trying to cause trouble.
My advice: Ignore the assholes, and pay attention to those who genuinely want to help.
THAT said:
To the Elitists
As in any group, there will be nice people (the majority) and a few assholes. Being in the "elite" does not preclude you from that fact.
If you want people to "follow you" and become "standards-a-holics", don't put them down, call them names, or complain about their content (with exceptions that do NOT include religion, politics, race, etc.) Explain what you see as the answer to their questions.
There are new websites out there every day. Do you remember the very first website YOU ever made? Bet IT wasn't "standards compliant," and, if it was, it was probably for a class! If you DID manage to create a standards compliant website (more than one page) from scratch, more power to you.
But you should know that in the REAL world, even nowhere near the business world, it just don't happen that way. Strive for perfection... Strive for compliance... Yes. Don't ever believe I'm saying otherwise. But, because of all the browsers and people (each and every one with their favorite computer, OS, and browser), if you want people to view your site, you cannot expect THEM to change for YOU. Don't "rail at the universe" because the world is not perfect.
In other words, don't be a "bully" about it. If you have CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM, MOST people will accept that with open arms. If you just slam everything a person does and put them down, they will rebel, some will sulk, some will go away, some will argue, and some will believe what you say (even if you only half-meant it and put a smiley or grin by your response), and they will not like you (and, therefore, will not listen to what you have to say.)
"As if I care" you may say. But part of an old saying goes "You'll catch more flies with honey," meaning be nice. An even older saying is "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." If YOU don't like being put down... If you don't like being bullied into things, what makes you think anyone else would?
Don't assume that everyone knows what you do... Don't "browbeat" them with your intelligence. Be a mentor. HELP them learn. The more that do, the more "standards compliant" pages will occur.
THAT said:
My Experience
I joined a couple of newsgroups through Google Groups. (Please note that newsgroups are are different from Google Groups! If you don't you will be informed of it if you do anything in a non-newsgroup way.) There you will find "elitists" - friendly and not-so-friendly, helpful and not-so-helpful - and "regular people", trying to find answers to their own questions.
I'd already asked a question, and someone "put me in my place", because of the way I posted, one with full explanation, one with a word I hadn't seen in some time (and so forgot its meaning), and one with advice. I corresponded with the last one for a few messages, figured out what I'd done wrong, and now all my pages print through my print CSS, in black and white, and everything I want to display does.
I've stayed with the groups through Google Groups (and connected to them through Outlook Express newsgroups), and through the former, get an email every night of the new postings. One of the questions asked, was:
whenever i tell people i use Frontpage for my html editor, they give that little laugh and say, "well i guess you aren't serious about making a website"...
i really dont see the disadvantages to it but then i have only used Frontpage so i dont know the advantages to the others...
why do people hate Frontpage? (link to Google Groups version of the thread)
I read the replies, and most were similar to the following:
- FrontPage is lame on many levels, not the least of which is how
it creates dynamic content... and forget the HTML it creates...
- If you read the generated output source code, you might
understand why FrontPage is not a good choice. It helps to understand raw HTML
and CSS. Further, given its head, it will generate stuff that only IE
users could see.
- Why would anyone use FrontPage in preference to GoLive,
Dreamweaver, Homesite or even TextPad?
- Just about all of the WYSIWYG editors produce poor quality HTML. What's more, they encourage the bad (and common) misbelief that building a Web page with HTML is just like laying out a page for a magazine using Scribus or Pagemaker or Quark Xpress. Frontpage in particular likes to produce IE-specific code which is bad for non-IE users (like myself) and bad for standards in general.
Just like the last one, all of the above and others had suggestions for other editors, most saying that TextPad or NotePad should be the "editor of choice". (If you don't know, these require directly entering everything, HTML and content. Now, look at the source for any long page (say this one), and see what you would have to enter manually!)
I didn't see anyone saying that FP (or, in fact, any of the WYSIWYGs) was GOOD for anything, especially for rookies (say... those who have written documents in WORD). While I don't think MS needs any defending - their popularity points to the fact that even with so many naysayers, there are plenty of those who like and/or use them), I didn't see anyone arguing the other side. So I responded:
> whenever i tell people i use Frontpage for my html editor,
they give that
> little laugh and say, "well i guess you aren't serious about
making a
> website"...
These people don't seem to realize that you can create the page in FrontPage Edit mode, and then edit the source to do what you wish. Yes, there are problems with FrontPage, but there are "problems" of some sort with ANY WYSIWYG and other editors.
Personally, I use FP in Edit mode to type in my content. (No groans... I have absolutely NO CLUE how to use DBs for the sites I have that could, and it's much easier to edit the HTML if FP has put the tags on most of the stuff for me.) I do use the PREVIEW tag to double-check that my editing has not screwed up the way I wanted the page to look, and close it out. When I publish, FP keeps track of what pages are linked where (images, other pages, subdirectories, whatever) on my computer, and redoes the website links after everything's moved. (Other editors do this, too. However, I've had cases where when I didn't use FP for publishing, the links had to be redone "on-the-fly" live on the web. Maybe I'm missing something here...(?))
And, yes... I have used Notepad at times. I also tried other (admittedly free) HTML editors, and none seemed to work as well for what I needed them to do.
Purists will probably say you should NEVER use a WYSIWYG editor, though I'm sure all WYS's allow for much quicker and cleaner development and prototyping. Yes, if you have your layout, you can use Notepad (or it's cousins), though sometimes you will miss things that FP (or others) catches.
If you feel comfortable with using FP while others don't, I don't see a problem either. I would simply say to be careful and DO NOT USE any of the "bells and whistles" that come with it... and DEFINITELY be careful if you create forms and input fields. You should be able to find examples by just searching for "forms html" or "form fields html" or something like that, and add them into your HTML directly (FP source, Notepad, etc.).
Everyone has their favorites.
> i really dont see the disadvantages to it but then i have only
used
> Frontpage so i dont know the advantages to the others...
Personally, I don't either, and, as long as it works for me...
> why do people hate Frontpage?..
Because it's a Microsoft product, plain and simple. They (MS) created a webpage builder so anyone who has used almost any MS (and other) product (especially word-processors) could use it, and people hate that!
> what editors would you recommend?..
I do agree that other MS products (Word, Excel, etc.) are VERY BAD at creating websites. They put a LOT of extra code in the HTML (almost, if not, EVERY line of HTML) that is unnecessary. (The only "extra" code I leave in my FP-created/-edited pages are in the META tags.)
As I said, I've tried a few others, but as long as I'm (and you're) aware of what FP will add in that shouldn't be there, of what it CAN'T do, you validate your pages at The W3C Markup Validation Service, and the page layouts are double-checked with AT LEAST Firefox, I, personally, don't see a problem with it.
BS
I expected to see a million people refuting my arguments, slamming me in every way possible, and was pleasantly surprised to find that, apparently, my most "controversial" comment, above was pretty much the last paragraph. Many feel that you should code for a standards-compliant browser, THEN tweak it for problems in others.
However, I've found (and another pointed out):
IE is STILL the most popular browser I think this way is backwards. Make it work in IE (what everyone uses) the tweek for the lesser used browsers.
I am NOT saying IE is better, only used more.
This statement set off further discussion on the benefits of developing using standards and validation.
In other words, give them INTELLIGENT and THOUGHT-OUT
responses, and see what happens.
![]()
My Suggestions for "Rookies"
Of course, like everyone, I have suggestions for rookie web page designers/developers, and others who what to know what someone ELSE thinks. If you think I'm missing something (and I might have), or feel I need to explain something better, my email link is at the bottom of the page. I will include a "comments" page, if, and when, I get some.
DO NOT assume that using an HTML email generator, word processor (say... WORD) or other Microsoft (and other) products and saving something as a web-page makes you a website developer.
The styles and types added by most of these products actually puts it on each line. (It's not really needed, there.) In fact, some will put DIVS around every single line on the "page". Again, these are not necessary, and add a lot of ... shall we say "crap" ... to the HTML.
LOOK at the source of your pages, then look at the source of professionally designed pages. Be SURE they are professionally designed. Be aware that even there you may find pages with a lot of extras in them. There are sites that are created professionally, that accept pages created by non-professionals. Sometimes those non-professionals don't really know HTML, and USE the program "capabilities" of the above, to post things. For example: A university website, professionally created by their team, and professors and TAs who post pages and sections using PowerPoint or WORD.
LOOK at the source of pages you like.
Try to understand what the HTML does, if it's something you've not seen, and ESPECIALLY if you're a "rookie".
Pay attention to and "internalize" all the stuff you DO and DO NOT like about the pages and source you have seen.
Write your HTML and CSS as "clean" as you can.
Remember, if it's hard for YOU to read, it will be even HARDER for someone else to read.
-
Leave "white space" around sections, paragraphs, etc.
-
Use "indenting" to help show tags and content within other tags and content.
-
Comment sections you feel are not obvious, or where describing files that will be "pulled in" to finish the page. (Think about what you'll need to know if you don't touch the page again for a year, or someone else has to make changes to it. And, if someone "steals" your format and HTML, feel proud, unless it's used as a "bad" example!
)
Writing in a "compressed" manner (the only spaces being those REQUIRED) or so that only you can decipher the page (or program or...) DOES NOT GUARANTEE "JOB SECURITY"! In fact, it might work against you.
Make TEMPLATES of your pages
Yes, even (and especially) professionals create a template for each different page of their site. Some actually get left on the site somewhere, and others stay on the local "mirror" of the site.
Work offline, test, test, test, then publish online
Create and do the majority of the editing of your site ON YOUR OWN COMPUTER or server. When everything works there that can be tested, THEN move it to the internet.
This makes multiple copies of the site, one on your computer, one on the internet server. (Technically - and as I understand it - this makes them "mirrors" of each other.)
This means you can edit your version without affecting the online version. (You should have another unedited copy of the local version, so you can always "go back" to what's online. However, you should also be able to pull a complete copy from the web.)
ADD A DOCTYPE STATEMENT to your template
See "Don't forget to add a doctype" from the W3C site. If you don't have a Document Type, the validators (see below) don't know which version to use, and will use the latest. This means your page, though working correctly, may NOT validate. If you don't know for sure, then I suggest you use either HTML 4.01, Transitional or Strict.
The Transitional will make Internet Explorer 6 (one of the more prevalent browsers) and others run in "quirks mode" (see "Activating the Right Layout Mode Using the Doctype Declaration" - pretty good article).
If you wish to be standards compliant, use Strict, but be aware that this may cause problems with your site in older browsers. Find out what's standard and what's not by researching at World Wide Web Consortium (W3C).
(OFPv2 uses Transitional, because I've been trying to get the content up, and, actually, never thought about using anything but what I had before. I probably should at least TRY to validate against STRICT mode to see what's what there... I'll let you know.)
Comment ... Comment ... Comment!
Yes, this adds to the size of the page, but also makes it easier for anyone else - and even you, yourself, assuming you haven't seen it for some time - looking at the source to understand what's going on.
Remember, if YOU didn't like editing something someone else wrote, try to make it easier and faster, if someone else has to edit your stuff.
Remember also, even if you are the only one doing any of the editing, it may be some time and many pages later that you look at the "code" again. (Sorry... I was a programmer for 25 years!) Make it easy on YOURSELF, too!
Use the web-development program you are most comfortable with.
HOWEVER, be aware that ALL WYSIWYG editors add code, don't "end" certain tags, etc. Take the time and use the Preferences and/or Options to set things up to work as "correctly" and "cleanly" as you can. When you are done in Edit or whatever mode, check the source.
Most WYSIWYGs, even FrontPage, have some type of color-coding for the HTML. Use it. It helps.
ROOKIES: Even on the most simple pages, LOOK at the HTML, and understand what's happening. (Switch back and forth between Source and Presentation - whatever it's called in your editor - or save and "bring up the page" in your browser to ALLOW you to switch back and forth using CONTROL-TAB. Believe me... It doesn't take that long to get used to doing the latter!)
Look at each (different) piece and learn the HTML behind what's presented.
WARNING: If you insist on putting "bells and whistles" from your HTML, etc. editor into the page, understand that, in most cases, they are proprietary, and will most-likely cause the page NOT to validate.
DO NOT create websites that run completely in Frames, Flash, or Images only pages.
Frames and Flash (Macromedia), as far as I know, will ONLY show the HOME PAGE. If there's something on your site someone wants to bookmark, every time they return, they will have to navigate to it from the Home Page. Personally, I got to the point of NEVER bookmarking those sites. Most of the time, what I want is a few pages "in" to from the Home Page, and I have to remember how to get there. I can find the same thing on site where I can simply bookmark (and return directly) to the page I want to view.
Image-Only pages CAN take a while to download, depending on your connection and speed at of their server, any server you bounce through from yours to theirs, AND your server, AND your connection to the internet. (Dial-up? DSL? Cable?) Besides, the ONLY reason for image-only pages is to display a picture as the basis of the page (say, a strip-club or porn site), or to include fonts that most people would NOT have on their computer. Yes, I do use the latter, as I'm sure most would, but not for full-page development.
Validate your HTML pages at The W3C Markup Validation Service.
Understand and, if you can, FIX what's "wrong" with the validation.
If you think you have everything on the page right, and something's not displaying correctly, you can also use the validator to find problems. DO NOT use this as your FIRST check. Do everything you can to find the problem, yourself, first. And, be aware that other things come into the mix, too. For example, CSS, JavaScripts, etc. Your page may even validate, but not present correctly. Those are why you try to fix it before you validate.
Be aware that one error can cause the validator to report
many. For example, if you include links in your pages,
if there are ampersands ("&") in the link (these
identify variables passed), and you haven't "escaped"
them (ironically, escape an ampersand in a link with "&"),
the validator counts the "&", the characters following,
usually to an equal sign ("=") AND the equal sign
(basically saying it couldn't generate a system
identifier for the entity - the characters between "&"
and "=".) Escape the "&" and all will be forgiven. That
is just ONE example. Don't be too put off by the number
of errors generated, until you understand what caused
them. (Though, if you're REALLY good, NO errors should
be generated!)
(The only pages that do not validate on any of OFP's sites should be older pages used as examples and any Forms. The latter is simply because I've not yet learned how to incorporate JavaScript - I don't know or have access to PHP, VB or C# - to define/validate the fields.)
Use CSS
Yes, you can "bloat" your CSS with too many styles - some of which you don't use. (Many would say that I probably did with OFPv2), but most of the "styles" used should be there or in the page's style-sheet, not on individual tags. This is one of the arguments against using MS Office programs.
Be aware of the "cascading effect".
Styling in a block MAY effect the way it's handled on anything defined INSIDE that block.
If you define a style more than once in an external stylesheet, the second definition will take on the properties from the first that are NOT defined in the second. This means that if you define, say, "fine-print" to show as 50% of your main font-size in the first definition, then later in the definitions define it as "bold", it will display as 50% of your main font, and instead of being "normal" print, will show as bold. Don't get confused by this.
If you define a style in an external stylesheet, AND in either or BOTH of the page's stylesheet or tags' styles, parts of the style may flow from the external sheet through the page's stylesheet through the tags' style, if they were not redefined. And don't forget something the defined for the block the tag is in could ALSO effect the style.
This can cause a LOT of confusion among "rookies", and even among those Web Elitists.
If a style isn't working, double-check that you used colons, semi-colons, and "squiggly-brackets" correctly. If you didn't, at the very least PART of the style, itself, and possibly, the rest of the stylesheet, will not work correctly.
Validate your CSS (in your HTML or Stand-Alone Stylesheet) at The W3C CSS Validation Service
This will tell you if your syntax is correct. It CANNOT tell you if a style is USED correctly.
Remember what I said about the "cascading effect".
If you don't know how to do something, first, search to see if just maybe someone's created a page describing what you need to do. (And don't be surprised to find hundreds!)
Search (I use Google) for "html" and/or "css" and what you're trying to do. Use quotes to make phrases.
Double-check to make sure more than one person said
that's the way to do it. (Don't EVER take the
suggestions of ONE site - even, and maybe ESPECIALLY,
THIS one
- as gospel. If other people
cite and link to it in their discussions, then they
probably knew what they were talking about.)
Don't be afraid to ask in discussions, forums, and newsgroups.
Yes... You may get some asshole replying to you, or they may say something you don't understand about the way you're posting, or some other non-answer.
For the latter, search for THAT term, so you know what you did wrong.
But, there are PLENTY of "elitists" out there willing to help, if they have the time and energy. (Thank you to all of you.)
by
Bill Sanders © September
27, 2006 - email:
Send email to Bill Sanders
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with questions or comments about this page or site.
This site, all text and graphics (unless otherwise noted) on it
were designed, developed and published by Bill Sanders of Orange Frog Productions.
It and it's CSS was validated and complies with both the:
CSS and
HTML 4.01
validators from W3C.
NOTE: All CSS validates except the "New Window Buttons"
- Their CSS includes some invalid code (ie: hacks)
and warnings for using transparent backgrounds when color foregrounds defined.
Copyright © 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006 by Bill Sanders / Full site last modified: July 10, 2006




